WS Architecture Teleconference
20 Nov 2003

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Contents

• Topics
  1. Scheduling Next F2F
  2. Action Items.
  3. Message Oriented Model concepts and relationships:
  4. Intermediaries.
  5. Envelope issue with Mark Baker.
  6. Reaction at AC Meeting.
• Summary of Action Items

Scheduling Next F2F

Scribe: Poll results: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34341/123f2fle/results

Poll: 12 responses, 3.5 days has most votes.

Decision: 3.5 days.

Scribe: ACTION: Chair to schedule F2F Mon-Thu noon. Host confirms OK.

Action Items.

<fgm> Please refer to the current editors draft of the arch document

Scribe: Ugo - stakeholder view of intermediaries -- in progress.

<fgm> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/arch/wsa/wd-wsa-arch-review2.html

Scribe: What is difference of stakeholder section?
... Less formal, more oriented toward people.
... Section 2 = analysis, breaking things into small concepts and relationships.
... Section 3 - Synthesis of elements defined in section 2.
... Can link to anything in section 2.
... Ugo - Can refer to SOAP details?
... Mike - judgement call.

<Scribe> ACTION: Hao to incorporate Roger's proposed definition for Message
... Reliability
... [Done]

<mchampion> ACTION: Ugo will draft statkeholders view of intermediaries [PENDING]

Scribe: ACTION: Hao to incorporate Roger's proposed definition for Message Reliability [Done]

<Scribe> ACTION: Frank will remove intermediary from MOM [pending]
... We will discuss this later.

<fgm> ACTION: Frank to move these next two paragraphs to the Semantics [Done]

<fgm> ACTION: Frank will remove intermediary from MOM [pending]

Scribe: ACTION: MikeC to check archives to find text we think we agreed to for message reliability & add it to the document [PENDING]

<Scribe> ACTION: MikeC to schedule time to discuss Hao's refactoring of SOM and assign someone to put it in the document [DONE]

<fgm> ACTION: Frank will discuss with others how to refactor SOM to
... incorporate intermediaries properly [pending]

Scribe: ACTION: Katia to review latest Discovery text [Pending]

<Scribe> ACTION: Paul to add something about Federation to Discovery [Pending]

<fgm> ACTION: Frank to add discussion on policies to service model

Scribe: ACTION: [PENDING] Frank to resolve policy for the service model Security -> Actuall this means "add discussion"

<Scribe> ACTION: [DONE] Roger to contact Abbie and see if he will work on an enumerated list of security threats

<Scribe> ACTION: Abbie writing text on security threats and resolution for document. Due next Wed.
... Management - Zulah has been reassigned and is not available to this group any more.
... Yin-Leng will try to take over from her.
... For management stuff. Stakeholder's section on managability.

<Scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Yin-Leng to propose a new WS manageability section in stakeholders section (due by beginning of December)
... (Done in the sense of undone).

<Scribe> ACTION: Yin-Leng to Update section 2 discussion of management to be in synch with section 3.
... Zulah had committed to update three notes on management function.
... Hugo says he might be able to cope, but not real quickly.
... Yin-Leng was part of the MTF.
... Yin-Leng - is this format conversion or content?

Hugo: Conversion to publishable format is the primary task.

Scribe: HTML -> XML.

<hugo> actually, it is more Word HTML -> valid and W3C-publication happy HTML

Scribe: ACTION: Mike to see that MTF notes get done.

<Scribe> ACTION: [DONE] David to refactor "1.5.6 The Process of Engaging a Web Service"
... CVS conflict needs to be resolved. David Booth will work it out,

<Scribe> ACTION: [DONE] Frank to resize meta.png

<Scribe> ACTION: Frank to respond to list of minor errors from comments list.

<Scribe> ACTION: Mike to incorporate all the Action items we didn't talk about into the minutes.

Message Oriented Model concepts and relationships:

Scribe: Draft has no changes in the MOM section.

<mchampion> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2003Nov/0008.html

<mchampion> ACTION: Hao to incorporate Roger's proposed definition for Message

Scribe: Correlation belong in MOM?

Frank: Correlation is association of message with context.

Scribe: MOM is about messages and routing, not context.
... That's why there's a question.
... Mike thinks it's service model.
... Frank - maybe it's a glue concept.
... Yin-Leng - Could come under MEP. Also under conversation.
... Frank - suggests leaving it in MOM for the moment at least.
... Ugo - thinks that correlation of series of messages sounds like choreography.
... Frank - choreography is in service model.
... Roger - Correlation sounds like an attribute on a particular message -> MOM
... Hao - Difficultly distinguishing between MEP from higher level stuff like choreography.
... Mike - seems we need more clarification in correlation section.
... How correlation relates to ...

<Scribe> ACTION: Refine correlation definition and verbiage to make it more clear how it relates to other concepts.
... Sigh.

Intermediaries.

Scribe: SOAP intermediaries seem different from ours.
... Transport-level intermediaries probably belong in MOM.

Ugo: Different cases. 1)Intermediaris on behalf of actors, so belong to messages belong to them.

Scribe: 2)Intermediaries introduced by third party, then do not belong to message.

Frank: When you encrypt the message you change the semantics to certain viewers.

Scribe: Danger of introducing intermediaries in MOM is of duplicating transport infrastructure.
... If we just want to say, "Messages get sent" then some of these intermediaries are not in the picture.

Ugo: In some cases the intermediaries are mixed in with the transport and others not.

Scribe: Mike - don't want to talk about transport-level inter.
... How a message gets from A to B is not relevant to SOAP.

Ugo: Not always true. Sometimes infor appears in headers about stuff like routing. [??]

Mike: Intermed part of SOAP processing model, but ...

Frank: Remove intermed and message path from message model.

Mike: SOAP interm. Service rather than message level.

Frank: Lower level examples of SOAP intermed. are red herrings.

Scribe: Doing it at higher level more appropriate at transport level.
... SOAP more service, don't want to make transport model, so move to Service.

Envelope issue with Mark Baker.

Frank: SOAP 1.2 does not say anything about addresses being part of an envelop.

Scribe: In the MOM, messages are delivered and there is an address involved.
... SOAP is vague on this.
... Addressing info is part of the message, architecturally.
... So need a concept of message slightly larger than SOAP concepr.
... Seems like envelope is natural place for that.
... SOAP envelop is container for message.
... For us also is addressing mechanism.

Ugo: If Address=info necessary to send message, then

Scribe: Have many different types of addresses, at different levels of stack.
... Some seem to belong to message, others do not.
... Some of these addressing mechanisms are really hard to associate with the message.
... Not clear what trying to achieve.

Frank: MOM requires hook to transport service. Some sort of information must go from MOM to transport for the thing to get delivered.
... We can be very abstract, say that "message is transported".

Scribe: Information needed by transport layer to deliver message = address.
... Wants to incorporate diverse information used in delivering message. Including policy, etc.

Mike: Huh?

Frank: Things like audit may be part of semantics of deliver.

Ugo: These functions belong to various levels.

Frank: Why don't I have a go and we'll criticize it later.

Scribe: ACTION: Frank propose revisions to address handling.

Reaction at AC Meeting.

Summary of Action Items