<scribe> ScribeNick: timeless
<darobin> is this mostly for scribing or can we also make fools of ourselves?
<TabAtkins> darobin: Do we need to choose one?
<darobin> TabAtkins: well, so long as we don't talk about unicorns
<dom> "it's 203" — as in "203 Non-Authoritative Information" ? :)
IanJ: Welcome everyone
... My name is Ian Jacobs
... welcome to the first developer meeting we've ever had
... we have a great lineup
... and i will get out of the way
... your names are up here, so just get up on time
... We have w3c groups and non w3c groups represented
... timeless has accepted to scribe
... the proceedings will all be public
Arun: My name's Arun for people
who haven't met me personally
... I work for Mozilla on Firefox
... on evangelism
... A lot of what we do is reach out to developers
... to see what we should be doing
... How many people are web developers?
... that's the lion's share
... How many people are in the business of developing web
applications?
... interesting a smaller number of hands
... Both as part of my work at mozilla and as someone who works
on standards
... I'm an author of a spec in W3C ... File API
Arun: I also work on a spec outside W3C WebGL
Arun: We work in Web Apps
WG
... You should be able to access databases on a client just as
you can on a server
... Today you guys have come to the hallowed precincts of a
sausage factory
... you're actively following a list-serve
... a lot of developers out there don't follow
... to them, they may be happy to take an API and run with
it
... We'd like to get them more involved in standards
... For examples, two browser vendors released browsers with a
SQL API
... but two vendors: Mozilla and Microsoft indicated they don't
want to do this
... We got feedback from developers indicating they didn't want
a SQL API
... ... In HTML5 and web apps
... How many people recognize this movie?
[Back to the future Movie picture]
["Where we're going, we don't need roads"]
scribe: I wanted to condense how
standards work into one day
... In fact, there's a story on CNet referring to a date in
2012
... So I thought about last night how to condense this into a
day
[Slide: Morning, Afternoon, Evening]
scribe: Basic rules of thumb on
Time
... Morning is the period that already passed
... Morning is a little while ago
... Features that are already available in browsers today
... The afternoon is things you can build on right now, but you
may not be able to do that in a cross platform manner
... How many people do things for some platforms and worry
about other browsers (esp IE6)
... The evening is stuff that has yet to come
... it holds in it the promise of a good night
... it holds in it the promise of things that are still being
fleshed out
... it's a bit more than that, but it's not something that you
can rely on in your bag of tricks
... The morning includes things like LocalStorage
... It's supported in IE8, Opera, Safari, Firefox 3.X (?)
... As for XMLHttpRequest
... it's implemented in most browsers (?)
... and XDomainRequest (in IE8)
... and they're implemented with the same security approach
(?)
... And you can grab me and we can look at snippets of code
where I can show you how you can do this in a cross browser
manner
... postMessage is also available in IE8, Firefox, ...
... CSS2.1 support, reasonably good, even in IE8
... you can look to it for better support than before
<krisk> IE8
scribe: That's the morning
... The afternoon gets a little bit more interesting
... it introduces more things about the platform
... things aren't as mature
... supported in Firefox (25% of the market)
... Safari, and Chrome
[Slide: Afternoon]
scribe: HTML5 Canvas
... HTML5 Video
... HTML5 Drag and Drop
<Tobias> Is this slide online somewhere?
scribe: CSS WebFonts (...)
... and geolocation
[ Demo ]
scribe: This demo brings together
a lot of pieces of the platform
... it sorta does, but the color isn't so great
... I've got a colleague of mine
... doing a fanning gesture between two iPhones
... if I click here, I've got a video supplanted between the
two iPhones
<dom> Hi Developers!
scribe: this only works if video is part of the browser, I can't do this with Flash
<IanJ> demo dynamically injecting content into a canvas (within a video element)
scribe: I can also embed a video
inside the animation
... This works when video is a first class citizen of the
web
... and this comes from html5
<IanJ> Arun: You get this flexibility when video is a first-class citizen of the web
scribe: here's another demo
... The color isn't great
... [about the demo]
... the pixels of the video are dumped into a canvas
... I'm going to label extracted bits
[names which people might not recognize]
[ fwiw, this usually works better, but for some reason one of the pins on the cable seems to be doing strange things ]
[arun uses the demo to establish facial recognition]
scribe: this demo uses
localStorage
... because i switch between two urls
<JonathanJ> http://people.mozilla.com/~prouget/demos/facedetector/new/play.xhtml
scribe: I have a lot of demos,
please come visit me later
... this is in the context of "the afternoon"
... I wanted to show you this demo
[IanJ: t-minus 10 minutes]
<dom> [very impressive demo for video]
scribe: I'm going to open font
book, a handy dandy application on my mac
... what I'm going to do now
... is show a bunch of technologies working together
... HTML5 Drag and Drop
... CSS Font Face
... HTML localStorage
... contentEditable
... I'm going to drag a font onto the page
... and dropped it onto the page
... and the page restyled itself using the font
[drags a font onto the page]
[arun misses the drop target]
<JonathanJ> http://labs.thecssninja.com/font_dragr/
scribe: I'm going to drop in
garamond
... now you can see the page has taken on a different
look
... this is directly using localStorage
... to store the stuff that I dragged
... it's using the drag and drop api
... and it's using font-face to set the font
... and it's using contentEditable
... if i got to a page flickr.com/maps
... I can share my location
[ Arun shares our location ]
scribe: this is the GeoLocation
API introduced in Firefox 3.5
... and I can drag my mouse over locations and see pictures
from there
... this is flikr using pieces of an API that recently became a
spec
... and now... "Evening"
... We're looking at pushing the hardware
... we're discussing storage
... and orientation events (angles)
... multitouch
[Arun holds up an n900 proto]
scribe: Firefox Mobile will ship for this device
[Arun demos playing a game by tilting his macbook pro]
scribe: this is a pretty popular go-kart game
[ demos an expanding red panda but tilting his laptop]
scribe: this is stuff we'd like to do in the evening
<scribe> ... pending discussion with other folks
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: this is stuff in
the evening, the promise of a tomorrow, or a tomorrow
morning
... and of course there's 3d graphics
... 3d graphics are extensions of the html5 canvas
element
... and exposes a new way to do hardware accelerated 3d
graphics
... these are the things I'm talking about from the promise of
an evening
Van Ryper (Krillion):
scribe: I've heard a lot about the web3d consortium
Arun: the deliverable of web3d
(x3d)
... is an interchange format that represents 3d graphics
... it's the ability for javascript to parse such
graphics
... and use webGL to expose those graphics
Robin: and someone's done that
Arun: X3D OM
... The promise of today is that javascript's performance have
improved so much
IanJ: so... Don Brutzman a chance to speak
DonB: We'll be showing this tomorrow morning at X-oclock
<smfr> 9-oclock
<darobin> X3DOM: http://www.x3dom.org/
Tom Strobers (user):
scribe: Java - JavaScript ?
<krisk> ...in the HTML5 WG Meeting
Arun: that's an interesting
question
... and I'll speak in a continuum
... java has historically been used as a technology that can be
used anywhere
... and so in fact can javascript
... javascript as it now runs in browsers
... and browsers run on mobile devices
Fantasai: JavaScript and Java has
no relation
... JavaScript runs natively in the browser
... whereas java runs separately
Arun: JavaScript is the defacto language of the web
IanJ: I'll see if we can talk
about moving things into programming languages and out of
declarative languages
... I want to keep things moving
... we have a lot of interesting speakers
... we have 3 bottles of wine
... You can use a business card, or just a piece of paper
... thank you Arun
fantasai: I'm an invited expert
of the CSS WG
... I've brought along a number of people from the CSS WG with
exciting demos
... first speaker is David Baron
... he writes specs, makes interesting comments, ...
[ laughter ]
dbaron: ...
... there've been a lot of demos of css stuff floating around
lately
... I've wanted to demo a few features that are not the ones
that get the most press
... the stuff that people demo are these new visual
effects
... shadows, columns, rounded corners, transforms
... one of them is border image
... the ability to take an image and then logically that image
gets split up into 9 pieces
... and then you can use those slices to form the border of
something else
[demo]
scribe: and this will now resize
as i resize the window
... another feature that's been in specs for almost 10
years
... but that hasn't been implemented until recently
... is font-size-adjust
... it lets you get better font behavior
... one of the problems is that font size is whatever the font
designer wants it to mean
... what font-size-adjust lets you do
... is that instead of letting font size do what it does
... font-size-adjust lets you operate on the x height
[ demo of font-size-adjust ]
scribe: another feature that's
now pretty widely implemented
... Mozilla, WebKit, and Opera
... are CSS Media Queries
... which let you change the style of the web page
... based on characteristics of the thing that's displaying it
to you
... so you can change the page based on, e.g. the width of the
window
... e.g. you can specify something that only operates for
windows >22em's wide
... the final thing, is a feature that I think is only
implemented in Mozilla
... many designers have struggled with css using intrinsic
widths in basic ways
... there's the longest word of the line
... and (??)
... so you can say the width is the min-content-width
... or the width is the mac-content-width
... or that it fits the container
... which is the same algorithm used for tables
fantasai: we'll have a couple of questions after each talk
dbaron: questions now...
VanR: ... how pervasive are things
dbaron: most of these that I've demo'd are supported in Firefox, Opera and Safari, but not IE
<IanJ> quirksmode.com suggested
VanR: ... meta question, is there a way to see supported list
Tab Atkins:
scribe: quirksmode ... and ...
Ian: ... status of a test suite?
fantasai: we're working on
it
... next speaker is Tab Atkins
TabA: ... i just got brought in
based on my work on the gradient spec for CSS3
... I'm going to take this opportunity to go over how spec work
is done
... because page designers often wonder how to get things
added
... steps:
... look at the problem and figure out what the actual problem
is
TabA: and then there's a mailing
list
... it's a public list
... I have an example
<Tobias> thanks dbaron
TabA: gradients
... Safari introduced experimental support for css gradients in
2008
... I don't know if these will work in Chrome
... that's ok... I have other things that will work
... We kick things around on the mailing list
... later Mozilla created something similar
<smfr> TabAtkins was showing: http://webkit.org/blog/175/introducing-css-gradients/
TabA: they said that they didn't like the way it was done
<benjick> IE have had CSS gradients for ever!
TabA: each vendor uses its own prefix (-webkit-, -moz-)
<smfr> now showing: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/-moz-linear-gradient
TabA: not the bad old browser
wars
... gradients can be done in CSS, with good performance
... without the network bandwidth
... the problem with gradients, was the syntax
... we kicked it around on the mailing list
... it's all public, you can read it on the mailing list
... what it ended up with was a proposal by me
<Arron> www-style archive : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/
TabA: i just proposed it on the
list
... it grew out of discussions with people
<smfr> Current proposal: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#gradients-
TabA: talking about what people were trying to do
[shows the detailed description of the proposal ?]
scribe: these are based on the
firefox implementation
... this is a Minefield build of Firefox
... it's now in the nightlies
dbaron: it will be in Firefox
3.6
... as of a few hours ago
TabA: so 3.6 will have the new
syntax
... so you can do things like you want to do
[ demos creating _beautiful_ gradients ]
scribe: this is directly using the syntax
<smfr> TabAtkins is testing with http://www.xanthir.com/etc/gradient.html
scribe: I'm just using javascript to set the background
Robin: ... do you have demos where it's animated?
TabA: it's an open problem
... it shows the evolution of an idea
... from someone identifying a problem
... to implementations
... to implementations(?) on the style list
... to proposals(?)
... so if you have a problem
... you tell us about it
... we kick it around
... or we decide to put it off until later
... browser developers are not always page authors
fantasai: coming to a browser
near you
... next up, Simon Fraser
... giving a demo of transforms and transitions
... these are new drafts that are coming up
... Simon works for Apple on WebKit, and used to work for
Mozilla
Simon= smfr
smfr: so...
<TabAtkins> darobin, I failed!
smfr: with transitions and
transforms
... this is some content that we put together using assets from
a band called Wilco (?)
... as I hover over things on the left
... you see transitions
[ shows the basic bits ]
scribe: we've got a standard
color
... and the nice red color?
... using completion in textmate
... let's put a transition right here
... over one second
... so now when i go back to the page
... you can see the transition
... transitions take a comma separated list
... another thing that dbaron mentioned was transforms
... so let's put a hover on the transform
... a precanned rotate of say X degrees
... and now let's make this nice and smooth
... so let's say ... .5s
... you can use milliseconds too
... so let's go back to our original page
... but this slideshow
... you can have crossfades
... we can use a translate
... and vertical scales
... that's a keyframe animation
... it's a little bit more complex
... they're not as advanced as transitions
... we can do a spin
... we're also proposing a 3d transform
... we're rotating around the vertical axis with some
perspective
IanJ: so are all the images there?
smfr: yes, it's all there, it's just css classes tweaking
Dan (HP):
scribe: we've got all these
transforms that we can use on a page
... we've also got canvas
... why should you use one or the other
smfr: with canvas, you draw and
then don't know what's there
... with transforms, you aren't making the content more
opaque
... you still have links
... we've also got examples of applying 3d to slices of a
page
... and revealing things from the page
... and we can hover over here and see hit testing still
works
... all done with css transforms
... we've done this inside apple
... this demo was done by charles ying (?)
... outside apple
... it uses flikr to fetch images as a wall
... hold keys down, move backwards and forwards
[ wiring glitch, we dimmed another room ]
scribe: thanks
fantasai: so that's our three
speakers
... we also have people from Microsoft here
... we've got a bunch of members from the CSS WG
Bernard Ling (?):
scribe: when does it appear in ie6? [just kidding]
dbaron: Mozilla has 2d transforms
in FF3.5
... transitions will be in FF3.7
smfr: 2d transforms should be identical in behavior
dbaron: 3d would be after 3.7
<dbaron> if we did it
IanJ: how to tell css wg your idea's
fantasai: [email protected]
xx-? :
scribe: is there any work being done on opacity across browsers
ms-1:
<dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/
ms-1: currently it's available
through filters
... it's a proprietary property
... we can sit down and i can try to help you with it
... moving forward in the future
... we can see about looking to expand
fantasai: css3 color is a
CR
... there's an opacity property
... I believe WebKit, Gecko and Opera
IanJ: ok...
RRSAgent: make minutes
<fantasai> Thanks everyone, your talks were amazing! :)
<dom> very impressive, indeed
Next Speaker: Philippe Le Hégaret (W3C)
IanJ: Philippe has worked on building a test suite
Philippe: let's talk about
something embarrassing
... testing at w3c
... I'm responsible for [long list of wg's]
... one of my plans is how do we test all that
... talking about testing at w3c
... we already have plenty of test suites at w3c
... css1, ... DOM event 2, css2.1, ...
... why do we have those test suites?
... one of those reasons is that in 1999 in the DOM working
group
... we came up with this phase called Candidate Recommendation
(CR)
... "we think we're done", but now we want to prove that we're
actually done
... this came out of the DOM WG
... to come out of the phase
... the WG _should_ come out with two implementations of each
feature
<karl> http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix we need to brush up the matrix
Philippe: it's a negotiation with
the [TBL role]
... what working groups tend to do
... is just demonstrate that each feature has been
implemented
... do they actually do this?
... no, they don't have enough resources
... and no one really wants to write tests
... but do we get interoperability on the web?
... and i would argue no
<dom> karl, I actually updated it (somewhat) a few weeks ago
Philippe: how can we make the web
a better place?
... w3c has limited resources
... yes we have microsoft
... but we have limited amount of time
... limited amount of budget, for product teams as well
... so what we really want is the community to help us
... tell us what works
... you run into problems all the time
... tell us about it
... can you please submit a test about it?
... what i'd like to see is the community help us
... let's make it a bit harder
[ slide: svg, mathml, video, ...]
scribe: I can manipulate the DOM
tree
... if i want to play a video, i just click a button which is
just a thing with css style on it
... and it will work
... but who is going to test all this?
... while we have produced some test suites
... we haven't produced combinations of specs
... css+svg+ ...
... so how do we test that?
... first we need to test the parsers
... we need to guarantee that the document you're writing will
generate one single DOM
... how do we test dynamic scripting
... if i want to test a css animation
... how do i test it if it's 3 seconds
... i don't want to test just the first frame and the last
frame
... we need to understand that there are limitations
... it's impossible to test everything
... and we have to acknowledge that
... but at the same time
... we need to do something
... the most common thing
... is a test that requires a human
... a "self describing test"
... [ pass with green, fail with red ]
... we can also test plain text output
... we can compare screen shots
... if you have for example in svg
... we know exactly what the output should be
... if you have a rectangle, we know what it should be
... we can take a screen capture
... with fonts, it's different
... what dbaron did
... is that instead of trying to write tests to match a static
image
... is how about we write two pages that should have the same
rendering
... using different features
... that's called reftests
... the advantage is that it can be cross
platform/browser
... with webkit, you can
<fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
<timeless> ... do a dump of a dom tree
scribe: and there are probably other ways that I'm not aware of.
<dom> Webkit DumpRenderTree, an example of layout tree comparison
scribe: one of the things I've
been trying got push inside the consortium is to have a browser
testing framework
... that other groups can use. They can choose a method to test
their specification.
... we want to make this as automatic as possible.
... we need to produce a lot of tests.
... e.g. Microsoft submitted 7000 tests that were all
self-describing tests
... that is not scalable
... it takes a long time to go through those tests
... because of our limited resources, we need to produce a
mechanism to help our working groups
... if they are reviewing tests, they are not writing
specs
... they should just be able to focus on controversial
tests
... if others can submit a test, then we can look if there's a
problem
... we can also see if its a bug in the browser, and they have
to change their impl
... We also have to be careful here, because if the tests are
wrong we get interop on the wrong behavior!
... We need to have testing for all these technologies, not just
one of them, or each separately
... but all of them together
... with HTML5 normatively integrating with SVG and MathML, we
need to test them together, not just each on the side.
... We need to be able to test HTML inside SVG
<smfr> and SVG inside HTML inside SVG
scribe: As I said there are
multiple ways to test a browser, and we should allow more than
one
... The browser implementors are not going to rewrite all their
tests for us
... but agree on some common formats so that we can all share
tests
... We also need to have a life after the Recommendation
stage
... the specs still exist after Rec, and we need to continue
testing them
... I don't want W3C to run that test suite. We don't have the
resources.
... We can't buy 100 servers and run tests on every possible
version of every browser
... So we want to allow others to run the tests. To run screen
shots on their own computer
... There are some difficulties. E.g. I don't know how to take
a screen shot by script on all the platforms
... What happens then?
... We can make the test results useful to you.
... Show reports of what works, and what doesn't. Let's make
the test suites useful for the community as well.
... And we should improve our validators at W3C.
... Maybe make it use test results.
... e.g. it notices You are using this feature, note that it
doesn't work on FF3.6!
... We're not alone, there are others who are trying to do the
same thing.
... test swarm for example is an effort from jQuery author,
because he was running into the same problem
... he cannot run every OS /browser combination himself
... browser scope is interesting too. It allows you to compare
screenshots across platforms
... It uses a web server locally to determine when to take the
screen shot
... We need to produce these tools incrementally
... and try to get them to work on all browsers
... I think the message that I like you to get out of this is
that we need help.
... I can get some help from browser vendors, but ultimately we
need help from the community because you are the ones suffering
every day.
... and until you tell us what is wrong, we are not able to
help you
<caribou> For the record, Help W3C Validators program at http://www.w3.org/QA/Tools/Donate
Ian: Questions for Philippe?
<darobin> interesting article on mobile testing: http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/09/testing_mobile_2.html
Dianna Adair:
<timeless> RRSAgent: make minutes
Dianna Adair: Could there be any hooks in the syntax so that you can pass arguments to the syntax automatically, through some sort of test generation program
Dianna Adair: Are there valid simulators for the major browsers?
Dianna: So that you can push the tests against the simulated suite of browsers
plh: For the first question, yes,
because we are starting from scratch
... For the other we can get screenshots of the major
browsers
... browsertests.org was done by an engineer in
Switzerland
... At the beginning of Sept. a few folks including me and a
few Moz developers got together and started writing code to do
that
<dom> BrowserTests.org
plh: We made a prototype that
works on the 3 major platforms
... He is improving his browser test framework
... At W3C we have a way to do human testing, I showed a demo
of the mobile web browser
... It requires a human to click pass fail pass fail
Dianna: One way I've seen that
works, is to set up a location and have some sort of
"bugfest"
... You have people all over the world trying to test things
simultaneously
plh: ...
... My goal is not to point fingers at browsers and tell them
they're doing bad stuff
... I want to serve the community
IanJ: Have you set up a mailing list or public place for people to come help out?
plh: Not yet
IanJ: ACTION Phillipe? :)
plh: We need to create a group
within W3C itself
... I know for example Mozilla and Microsoft are interested in
helping
... We need to organize and provide a venue for the community
to come together
Dianna: I propose that Universities are a great source intelligence and creativity and might be able to help
Kris (MSFT): There is a test suite alias in the HTMLWG
plh: Yes, we also want cross-tech testing
Kevin Marks: Do you know the test suite for called doctype at Google
plh: I only mentioned testing
framework. There are plenty of efforts out there
... One thing I did in August was to collect some of that
... We are not alone, there are a lot of others trying to solve
the same problem
IanJ: Ok, we have 4 more speakers
after the break
... I'll hand over to Tim for now
TimBL: Thanks for coming
<karl> there was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-testsuite/
Tim: It's important that everyone designing specs is in contact with lots and lots of people using their specs
<karl> and now http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/
Tim: Good to have feedback, and feedback on how to get feedback.
IanJ: Next speaker, Brendan Eich,
representing ECMA
... and ECMA harmony
brendan: I'm here from
Mozilla
... I'm here to talk about ECMA Harmony
... which is a ... which we reached last summer
... before that, we had problems
... the figure of XX ...
... identified as gandalf ...
... there were people like Doug and sometimes me
... advocating for JS Hobbits
... small enough and based on principals from Scheme
itself
... it had virtues which were only discovered years later on
the web
... it was the dumb kid brother to Java
... JavaScript was supposed to be the duct tape language
... you were supposed to write it around the real language ..
Java
... I think people will agree that Java is basically dead on
the client
... there were problems with Java
... the main issues was that JavaScript was a dynamic
language
... is a dynamic language, and will continue to be a dynamic
language
... the fear with ECMAScript 4 (?)
... was that it would become a static language
... the fear, as with Visual Basic 7
... was that you take a dynamic language
... and you convert it into a large proof system
... and that's not how languages are built
... if ES4 would have been that, i'd be that guy with
Gandalf
... there was a point in 2006 where the committee seemed
united
... the MS representative was going to put some old version
into JScript.net
... and we were all united
[ Slide: The Fellowship of JS ]
scribe: the fellowship was broken
[ Slide: Conflict (2007) ]
scribe: some of it was based on
the real prospect that i was somehow working toward
... of pulling the drive language of flash, actionscript, into
the web
... and again, microsoft was working on pulling a version into
JScript.net
... based on waldemar horwat
... ECMA requires consensus
... and we didn't have that
... at the time this happened in march
... it was clear to me that this wasn't going to work, someone
was going to win, and someone was going to lose
... but this was going to be ok
... because it would involve improvements to the language for
the web (?)
... ecma was stagnating
... 4th edition was mothballed in 2003
... netscape was dying - partially because of its own failings,
and partly because of microsoft (see antitrust)
... msie was sleeping
... in 200x (?) ... there was a chance of things
improving
... in April 2007, there were things like
... Microsoft's Silverlight offering
... a JScript Chess demo was converted into C#
... it was 100s of times faster
[ Slide: The Two Towers ]
* ES4
* Waldemar Horwat's work at Netscape, 1999-2003
* JScript.NET, 2000
* ActionScript 3, 2005-2006
----
* ES3.1
* Doug's recommendations
* Document JScript deviations
brendan: ...
... there were a lot of bugs in IE's implementation of
JavaScript
... and MS was heavily involved in the standard writing for
ECMAscript 2/3
... and there were serious bugs in the MS implementation
* "No new syntax"
brendan: ...
... if you never add things, you can't break things
... if you aren't careful, and you add global
objects/methods
... you can break the web
... (facebook)
... no new syntax doesn't save you
... time was passing, we were trying to get es4 out
[ Slide: Synthesis (2008) ]
brendan: ....
... Allen proposed meta object API
... on the ES3.1 side
... Lars Hansen on the ES4 side, "Packages must go"
... in April 2008
... Namespaces must go too (June-July)
... unfortunately, we lost Adobe
... because they felt they lost the bits they had derived from
the standard
... but that's a risk when working on standards
... when we reached harmony in July in Oslo
... the language again is inspired by Scheme with influences
from Self
... one of the foundations of Scheme is lexical scope
... javascript has some broken bits of scope
... Doug's teaching and attitude
... in es4 we're looking toward a strict mode
... we have a hope for "use strict mode" for es5
... similar to perl5
... we're trying to avoid "use stricter" for future
versions
... that's my quick recap of how we reached harmony
... ES3.1 was renamed ES5 (March 2009)
... We decided not to trouble ECMA with fractional standard
version numbering
... ES4 died
... we're not sure if Harmony will really be 5
... we might need to do some quick versions for standardization
reasons
... the committee is not the gatekeeper
... a chokepoint for all innovation
[ Slide: Namespaces ]
brendan: ...
... who here knows about Namespaces in Flash?
[ hands raised ]
scribe: there's ECMAScript For
XML (e4x)
... it has a lot of problems as a spec IMO
... it's a spec whose pseudo code was extracted from java
code
... so you have bugs from the code, translation, etc.
... it almost broke the object model
... it had integrated query
... it had namespace objects
... you had to use ::'s to qualify stuff
... sometimes people complain about namespaces in XML
documents
... es4 was much worse
... it was very powerful
... because you could use lexical scope to change how code
behaves
[ Slide: Packages ]
scribe: packages are built on
namespaces
... even today in actionscript, there are some funny things
about them
... there's a temptation to think that using long chains of
dotted things
... there's a temptation to think that the dotted things can
win
... but because the language is dynamic
... the winner can be the normal object with similar property
paths
... I think this problem still exists in actionscript
... and then there are problems with <script> tags
[Slide: Namespace Problems]
scribe: here's a problem with
namespaces
... ambiguities can happen when scripts come along and defined
a namespace later
... I'm explaining why Namespaces died in ES4
... Question: Why am I talking about why Namespaces when you
already said it's dead
... Answer: it died because it had technical problems
... that we couldn't figure out how to solve
... the alternative was to require whole-program analysis
[ Slide: ES5 Meta-programming ]
scribe: the 3.1
contribution
... Create properties with getters and setters
... we have this in mozilla under a different name
... it's finally standardized
... instead of
__defineGetter__/__defineSetter__/__lookupGetter__/__lookupSetter__
... We implemented this about 10 years ago in Mozilla
... but MS/Opera didn't implement it
... when live maps launched
... it treated the DOM as the ie DOM
... and then it looked to see if the host wasn't IE
... it decided it wasn't IE, then it must be Gecko
... so it used __defineSetter__/__defineGetter__
... to support it
... this caused a fire drill in Opera/Safari
... to implement this missing feature (within a week!)
... to support live maps
[ Slide: ES5 Meta-programming ]
scribe: you can define things
that don't appear in for-in loops
... because the ajax community learned about how pollution
breaks iteration
... with this facility, you can not break those things
... with this, lack of syntactic salt
... you can create objects
[ Slide: Hardening Objects ]
scribe: you can make an object
that delegates to another object
... without using a constructor pattern
... you can prevent extensions, and prevent reconfig
... and prevent all writing
... this enabled a lot of what we had in ES4 classes
[ Slide: Harmony Requirements ]
scribe: as we worked on harmony,
we realized we should state our requirements
... in some way
... we don't want to do anything that requires innovation in
committee
... or abstract jumps
... we want to keep the language pleasant for casual
developers
... so you could start small and grow
... javascript is in some ways a virus
... it has grown into an application programming language
... we want to keep these features
[ Slide: Harmony Goals ]
scribe: * Be a better language
for writing
... [] complex applications
... [] libraries (possibly including the DOM!)
... [] code generators
... * Switch to a testable specification
... * Improve interoperability, adopt de facto standards
... * Keep versioning as simple and linear as possible
... * A statically verifiable ...
[ Slide: Harmony Means ]
scribe: * Minimize additional
semantic state
... * Provide syntactic conveniences for:
... [] good abstraction patterns
... [] hide integrity patterns
... [] define desugaring to kernel semantics
... * Remove (via opt-in versioning or pragmas) confusing or
troublesome constructs
... * Build Harmony on ES5 strict mode
... * Support virtualizability for host objects
[ Slide: Harmony Proposals ]
brendan: ...
... prognosis, it should be sorted out in 2-3 years
... things that don't make it go toward es6
... you can self host your way to a stronger language
... ECMA standards group TC39 is still strong
IanJ: thank you brendan
... that was our transition talk
... into Internet Ecosystem
scribe: I'm talking about
international domain names (IDNA ?)
... IDNA 2003
... There was a system developed in 2003 that allowed people to
have international characters in domain names
... I don't know if people saw the news this week
... What happened this week is that the top level domains can
have non ascii characters
[ Slide: IDNA 2003 ]
scribe: you can't do certain
things...
... IDNA 2003 is tied to Unicode 2.3 (?)
... If you look at the uppercase characters
... they're mapped to lowercase characters before they reach
dns
... O with two dots is converted to a lowercase version before
it gets sent out
... it gets converted with an ascii binding with something
called punycode
[ Slide: IDNA 2008 ]
scribe: about 3 years ago there
was an effort to revise it
... it updates to the latest version of unicode
... and makes the system unicode version independent
... but it invalidates certain urls
... uppercase letters are invalid
... it removes a class of symbols and punctuation
characters
... and it makes certain classes of characters not equivalent
to other expansions
... IDNA 2008 is not yet approved
[ Slide: ISSUES ]
scribe: this causes problems for
browser vendors
... which need to retain compatibility with pages using
IDNA2003
... need to match user expectations
... it causes problems for search engine vendors
... need to match old and new browsers
... need to match old and new expectations
[ Slide: UTS46 - Compatibility "Bridge" ]
scribe: It enables everything
that was allowed in 2003 with the same behavior
... it allows the new stuff allowed from 2008
... it has different things for lookup/display
display: ß, lookup: ss
[ Slide: Compatibility for Transition ]
scribe: aimed at client SW, not
registries
... allows client SW to handle both 2003 and 2008
... consensus from browsers and search
... I'll send the slides to IanJ
IanJ: thank you
[applause]
IanJ: thank you for your good
work at unicode
... you mentioned hot controversies
Mark Davis: ...
scribe: there are
controversies
... I'll introduce Eric Vanderpool (?)
... Michel Suignard
... one of the coauthors of the IRI spec
... a key issue is the compat difference between the 2003 and
2008 spec
... we've been trying to walk a delicate line
... while not trying to stomp on the IETF toes
... because it's their spec
Diane: ... ...
... If I own one, name sparkasse-gießen.de
... can you squat on sparkasse-giessen.de
Mark Davis: ...
scribe: you can't reserve
'sparkasse-gießen.de'
... it's like case
Doug: ...
... about the heart case (I❤NY.blogspot.com)
Mark Davis: That will resolve to an all lowercase version
scribe: If you were using a
browser that implemented IDNA 2008 strictly
... it will fail
questioner: ...
... so the issue about uppercase
... does that mean that you can't type www.APPLE.com?
Mark Davis: no...
scribe: it's limited to IDN cases
<dom> (http://I♥NY.blogspot.com/ resolves to http://xn--iny-zx5a.blogspot.com/ in my FF3.5)
Doug: what's the goal in not making it work?
Mark Davis: that's part of the controversy
<smfr> Safari goes to http://i♥ny.blogspot.com/
scribe: it was bad to show something that was other than what was being resolved to
Robin: so what's with the heart?
Mark Davis: well symbols and punctuation look to close to other things
scribe: We dropped ~3000 such
characters
... We dropped ~4000 characters relating to ÖBB.at
... For a lot of us, this didn't really solve the problem
Doug: so it doesn't limit you to non mix ranged characters?
Mark Davis: ...
scribe: there are a number of
guidelines in Unicode 36
... the problem is that there are a number of cases where it's
needed and customary
... such as mixing Japanese and Latin
... and distinguishing legitimate from others
... and over time, browsers are solving the problems
Rohit: ...
... regexps that pigeon parses urls ... will that break?
Mark Davis: ... you need to replace the dot with the character class
Rohit: are you familiar with the
ipv6 handling in urlbars
... and how long it took before it was implemented?
Mark Davis: most stuff users do should work
scribe: but sure the servers will break and have probably been broken since 2003
Tom: ...
... this is at which level?
Mark Davis: this is all handled at the browser level
scribe: punycode ... was adam
costello's pun
... as far as dns is concerned, it's all xn--...
... the routing/dns system doesn't see this
... the browsers basically get to agree with this standard
Richard: ...
<IanJ> [Richard Ishida]
Richard: what if i have a
heart
... what you've been describing is something which does a
transformation of these strings
... if i understand this correctly
... you will continue to use this
... we've been working with all the browser representatives and
search engine companies to handle this
xx-4: from hp
... you've alluded to phishing attacks
... what's the status
Mark Davis: ...
scribe: everyone has some
approach for dealing with this
... but it isn't consistent
... I think it's a bad idea to standardize too early
... there are a lot of holes before we come up with a cohesive
solution
IanJ: thank you
[applause]
IanJ: Next Leslie Daigle @ ISOC
Leslie: ... talk/pres/discuss/...
[ Slide: The Internet - Evolution and Opportunity ]
[ Slide: The Internet Society ]
scribe: Founded in 1992
... 100 members, 90 chapters ...
... promoting/sustaining internet as a platform for
innovation
[ Slide: Internet Evolution ]
scribe: Incremental changes
... seven layers
... independent building blocks
... flexible + responsive
... impossible to nail up a global deployment plan
[ Slide: An external pressure ... IP addresses ]
scribe: Running out of IPv4
addresses
... last allocation from IANA predicted for Oct 2011
<rohit> apologies for interrupting the scribe, but I wanted to share a link for the dumb-app-guy question I asked earlier:
scribe: last allocation to ISP
anywhere, predicted for Feb 2013
... Lots of IPv6 addresses
<rohit> http://drupal.org/node/368472 -- an example of sw currently broken and the very first request from the devs was for a regex :)
scribe: it's not going to be an ipv6 internet before the last ipv4 address is handed out
<rohit> viz "valid_url() marks correct IDN domains as invalid"
scribe: more NATs
[ Slide: Implications above the IP Addressing Layer ]
scribe: IPAffinity breaks!
... a recent roundtable of industry leaders we held included
reps from Google, Yahoo, Akamai, Netflix, and Comcast
... discussed impending impact on geolocation, geoproximity,
management of distribution of copyrighted materials
...
http://www.isoc.org/educpillar/resources/docs/ipv6_200905.pdf
... Multiple open streams breaks!
... sharing addresses => fewer ports => ajax apps have
troubles
... poor performance of web pages, e.g. Google maps
... users see google maps tiling in slowly
... users don't blame the network, they blame the server
[ Slide: Responses to the IP addressing situation]
scribe: major ISPs and content
providers are including ipv6 in their current deployment
plans
... wireless broadband LTE has IPv6 baked in
[ Slide: Opportunities in the IP Addressing Situation ]
scribe: make sure your web
servers are ipv6 capable
... don't write ipversion specific apps
... with ipv6 you can imagine a world where everything is
uniquely addressable
... example of problems ...
... Opera tries to outsmart OS
... if it finds ipv6 address it will use it
... whereas vista might know to fail over to an ipv4
tunnel
... but it can't because opera didn't let it decide
[ Slide: Another external pressure - Unwanted Traffic ]
[ Slide: Responses to Unwanted Traffic ]
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4948.txt
scribe: no final conclusion
[ Slide: Alternatives? ]
scribe: top down imposition of
security doesn't fit the Internet
... the internet is a "network of networks"
[ Slide: Security Tools Must Address Total Threat Model ]
[ Slide: Different Security Mechanisms Are Needed for Different Threats ]
[ Slide: Too Much Security Technology Impedes Usage, without Reducing Bad Behavior ]
[ laughter ]
[ Slide: One building block: DNSSEC ]
scribe: secure results from
domain name servers
... so you can be sure whatever you get back from dns is what
the dns server intended to send you
... tamper proof packaging on dns responses
... this doesn't prevent phishing
... it doesn't encrypt the data in the response
[ Slide: DNSSEC opportunities ]
scribe: with DNSSEC you have a
better platform for confidence in dns
... dnssec is deploying rather slowly
... I've referred to these in other contexts as broccoli
technologies
... you should eat it, but it's better with a cheese
sauce
... but there's no cheese sauce
[applause]
Phillip (Cisco): ...
scribe: when do you think ISPs will deliver IPv6 connectivity?
Leslie: ...
... some soon in Europe, and a few maybe in the US
... I think it's fair to say of the service providers thinking
about it
... they will have it deployed before *they* run out
... this is slightly better than before when it was like "yeah,
we have it in our research lab"
Tom: you mentioned an ISP
... what specific one?
Leslie: of the list I have here, Comcast is the access one
Mark: Have you seen a hoarding of ipv4 addresses?
Leslie: I think some have
retirement plans by auctioning them off
... In principal the regional providers have fairly strict
releases of addresses
... the problem is that we're going to run out
Doug: ...
... I asked about a tutorial
... I still think you need a tutorial
... with a tweetable domain name
Leslie: yeah, that'd be great
[laughter]
scribe: part of the challenge is
that everyone's problem is different
... at some point, we'll figure out the commonalities
... we're trying to get some of the ones who have done it in a
room with some who haven't
... so they can share knowledge
dbaron: David Baron,
Mozilla
... in what would you like to do with DNSSEC
... none of this is speaking for mozilla
... there are certain things i'd like to be able to do with
dnssec
... among them is putting public keys in dns
<shepazu> put i18n urls in Acid4 :)
dbaron: to avoid using a CA
... another is putting email autoconfig information into
dns
... another is to put a default https flag
... to say "foo.com" should go to "https://foo.com" instead of "http://foo.com"
Leslie: thanks for thinking about
the questions
... in terms of where to go with them
... some of them are pursued within IETF
... particularly, some levels of email, e.g. domain keys
... to say "this is the server allowed to send email for this
domain"
... so the IETF is the right place to go for a lot of this
Kevin: ...
... what would i like to do if i had lots of addressable
points
... i'd like to setup servers on my own machines
... without proxies
Leslie: yes
... it'd be good if people would stand up and say that
loudly
Kevin: we've seen this problem with real time flow
Diana: ...
... what would i do if i had lots of addresses
... what if i was a washing machine
... what if i was an animal owner
... and i put a chip in each one
... or a hospital owner
... and i wanted chips in patients
... i think ...
... I think we'll run out of ipv6 within 10 years
Tom: who is the definitive place for ipv6
Leslie: all of them
IanJ: thanks Leslie
[applause]
<scribe> ScribeNick: IanJ
Speaker: Kevin Marks on OpenID,
etc.
... open social web standards
<dom> [note that JessyInk provides similar effects as Prezi in SVG]
KevinMarks: How I got to this
point.
... the problem is Babel
... see the "Map of Online communities and related points of
interest"
(one example: http://uzar.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/online_communities11.png)
KevinMarks: Histogram your users...people use 12345 and 90210 when they are lying to you :)
<timeless> http://www.academiccommons.org/commons/showcase/map-online-communities
KevinMarks: You have to give
people a reason to @@
... Open social builds on existing infrastructure
... Defining an API for your favorite programming language...as
long as it's javascript.
Open social v0.8 enabled new client and programming models by adding server to server protocols.
<caribou> [original pic at http://xkcd.com/256/]
KevinMarks: Over 1 billion users
of open social stuff.
... developing REST APIs.
... Challenge is to identify "me"...people accustomed to
identify selves via HTTP URIs
... WebFinger(email) -> URI
... Next think you want to know is "my friends"
... Portable contacts....vcard + some useful fields used by
most of the social networks.
<smfr> vcard
KevinMarks: what we
do....(photos, etc.)
... the model underneath that is "feeds" but those were
designed for blogs.
... Activity Streams codify "actions" (that were not part of
feed design)
... Notion of "flow" ...atom pub (posting; and equivalent JSON
APIs)...and newer: pubsubhubbub
... a way to get around the feed polling problem.
... you don't check the feed ever N cycles...you get a post
when the feed changes.
... Salmon builds on those ideas....codifies "going back up the
stream and down again"
... A big chunk of the challenge is to get delegated
login.
... didn't get you that much...
... not much improvement to actual user experience.
... but now we have more to help solve form-filling
problem.
... you can make a business case now for using the APIs rather
than creating yet-another-UI
... we are starting to see this implemented
... you can delegate your logins to the site...will go to site
and get not just user identify, but richer identity as
well.
... not quite convergence, but we are trying to pull them
together (from different site approaches)
... OAuth is a way of issuing tokens.
... you do an HTTP request; knows who you logged in as and your
creds; gives you back things you have right to.
... replaces cookies; state management doing in RESTful
fashion
... google and yahoo offer this for all their services; twitter
likely to as well
... empirical standards (as we experienced with
microformats)
... focused on agreement rather than completeness.
... "t-shirt not a suit"
... "good enough standard"
... example of portable contacts.
... we looked at social networks and what they have in
common.
... activity stream stuff...we have enough social network
sites...what actions are they taking that is common enough to
build a vocabulary
[end of overview of the space]
scribe: ad hoc realm.
IJ: Have you taken some to IETF?
KevinMarks: Yes.
... We've set up foundations...but then created OWF.
... as a foundation factory...to do all the legal stuff that
you have to do...so you could use this in other places...model
was the Apache foundation...but to do for specs what Apache
does for code.
... I've worked in video standards before...didn't seem in
these cases to have the same patent thicket.
Dan Appelquist (Vodafone): How would you compare this approach to integrating social networks to one based on XMPP?
KevinMarks: Bits and pieces
around that.
... there's some overlap and some you can bridge through.
... a lot of this came from open social experience...and part
was moving through their comfort zone.
... there's nothing stopping you from sending this over XMPP
(as transport)
DanA: I ask because I have heard a view expressed -- isn't all of this retrofitting onto existing web sites something that could be done with a different approach?
KevinMarks: pubsubhubbub stuff
closest to xmpp...
... there's some similarity, but a lot was about web developers
writing web stuff....but that is changing...
... I think a lot comes down to tastes.
... You can build bridges...there are also cultural tastes
among programmers.
... for some, dynamic programming languages not scary, for
others it may be.
DanA: In the social web incubator
group meeting we held this week, we spent a lot of time talking
about user stories
... I'm a user on one social network; I want to create a friend
connection to someone on another social network.
... how would you do that?
KevinMarks: When we defined open
social, it was with one site in mind.
... but we are now at the point where it's becoming more
important....xfn in microformats.
... that works like crawling foaf works.
... many sites have mixes of public and private...you can't
just use a crawler over public data.
<tantek> crawling XFN works like that today, using HTML <a href> today
KevinMarks: you need to be able to provide access control.
<tantek> OAuth provides the access control for private data
KevinMarks: there are still some
issues sorting out assertions from multiple parties.
... there may be some bindings I can make that you may not want
to become public.
... we've punted on some of the stickiness...we addressed some
issues first (such as "no more forms asking for personal
data")
... the delegation part becomes important.
... about 2000 twitter apps now.
... because you can delegate into it the list of people you are
interested in.
... we are trying to correlate patterns in various apps and get
commonality.
timbl: When you want to aggregate
cal info there are two ways (1) go to a site or (2) run
something on your laptop that goes to fetch info.
... if you run on your laptop you don't have delegated
authentication. No site knows everything about you.
... you don't give one site access to stuff, where another site
might be confused about access boundaries.
... how do you see competition between cals on desktops and
sites going in the future?
KevinMarks: I would hope we could
use the same protocols for both.
... I can't get a remote site to call me back on my laptop..I
have to open the connection first.
... I have to do those things over a "hanging GET" from the
browser.
... rather than opening ports to listen to things
... that militates towards going to the site.
timbl: if you are a native desktop app, you can open a port.
KevinMarks: It's a NAT problem.
(e.g., from a cafe)
KevinMarks: That's driving people
to web services that feed info through.
... services can use sms, email, other protocols.
... Once we can put up servers again (with ipv6), that will
help.
timbl: I think a lot has been architected differently because of NAT.
KevinMarks: Bittorrent is arguably a layer that tries to game TCP.
rohit: a couple of the big open id scares (some since resolved) hover around this issue.
KevinMarks: A big chunk of this
is constraining delegation to what is "should be."
... may not be better, but is better than name/password and
associated.
timeless++
<marie> timeless++
John: Efficient XML
Interchange
... Sometimes you need just the right problem to kick you to
the next level of evolution.
... web is always evolving to new places.
... part of what EXI is meant to do is take the Web/XML to new
places.
<KevinMarks> my prezi is at http://prezi.com/c2hwhoqdmlfj if you can pardon my Flash
John: XML has been wildly successful: communities, vendors, open source
thanks!
scribe: we want to make it easier
to use xml in environments with bandwidth/space
limitations.
... people wanted to be able to tap into communities and
tools...30 or so binary xml technologies that popped up.
... diversity is good for evolution but not particularly good
for interop.
... created EXI WG
... at first, nobody believed.
... we brought experts together...9 months later and 147 pages
of analysis, found one!
[EXI Benchmarks]
scribe: lots of other specs
published at w3c...will give interop across a broad set of use
cases.
... a lot of the people behind this were the people previously
competing...fracturing of marketplace going away.
... we are looking at one good solution.
... source is info theory and formal language theory
... the results are great:
- bandwidth utilization
- faster processor speeds
- greater battery life
scribe: simultaneously optimizes a lot of things
....we wanted to see how compares to compression....lots of test cases...better in every case and faster
...if you compare to packed binary formats, it consistently beats those as well
very efficient way to share data in general.
[demo time]
real world example to send 1M data to an aircraft
With EXI was 1 second.
Without EXI 2:23
...there is some processing time on the other end.
...but it's not compression...you process it faster on the other end, too
){kind=link}